Sally talks Self-Leadership with Lisa Lockland-Bell

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Interview Transcript

Sally Foley-Lewis

Hi, Sally Foley Lewis here. And we have another episode of the sparks series talking to amazing senior leaders about how to fire up your courage, your influence, and your confidence through self-leadership. And today I have the absolute honor and privilege of speaking to Andrew Short, who is the Assistant Commissioner for, let me get this right. Queensland Fire and Emergency Services. Um, I’m an ex public servant myself. So sometimes you’ve got to double check that the department name, because I can change in a, in a minute sometimes. Um,

Andrew Short

I don’t get too bothered by, um, by, um, misrepresentation.

Sally Foley-Lewis

You get to wear a uniform. And I think that helps a lot too. So

Andrew Short

It makes it easy for what you choose to wear in the morning.

Sally Foley-Lewis

Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. So, Andrew, thank you so much for joining me. I am, um, I’m delighted that we’re about to go down the rabbit hole of self leadership and, um, and really, really, really appreciate your time. So let’s just jump in. Um, what, what do you think self-leadership is?

Andrew Short

Yeah, if you asked me, you asked me this question 10 years ago, even 15 years ago, I would have given you a very different answer. And I think what’s happened for me. You know, I still got a lot of good leaders who end up in this space with, I realised that, uh, uh, having a handle on self-leadership or having a handle on leading self, uh, ends up being the center point for virtually everything that builds off it. And it’s really interesting watching, uh, people who are on that journey. Uh, some, you know, down lower on the continuum, others, uh, uh, up a lot higher. And what I found is that you end up observing people on that journey. And when you see moments where maybe they’re not, they’re not showing that the self-awareness that you would like to see in a leader, you, you, I’m less critical.

Andrew Short

Now that icon of go well know, clearly they don’t get the journey. So for me, um, it’s the, um, uh, there’s an expression and I’m looking at try to remember who said it, but, um, uh, you know, th there, there are two things that are hot as dominance, and one is the nominee and the other one is, uh, knowing yourself. So that really is the key here that, um, it doesn’t come easy and people a lot good. I go through a lot of, um, you know, structured in and full, um, uh, learning experiences, uh, you know, um, feedback loops, which can be really quite, um, harsh to actually get yourself to that point where you actually start to become self-aware.

Sally Foley-Lewis

Yeah, and I think sometimes, um, the delivery of such feedback, um, can impede the, uh, the awareness, uh, piece of that to Canada. At times,

Andrew Short

You see it, where if you say something to someone that puts a gap between their own, um, awareness of ice situation involved in themselves, and what may be a third party or other parties that say that they talk about that as being the gap in a way. And it’s pretty scary. Sometimes it’s pretty scary for people who, um, you know, some people whose nature, uh, Kane actually, uh, have people hesitate, giving them direct feedback. So they go through a period of other organisational life or personal life where they probably think they’re doing really well, because they don’t get too much feedback. And it’s because people probably don’t feel comfortable and give them the feedback. But when people start working on that and actually, and, you know, let them have some feedback be a right wrong or different, it can be really a moment for that person. It can actually be a moment of change for them and it can come in. It can come in many ways.

Sally Foley-Lewis

Yeah, definitely. It’s a sliding doors moment in a lot of ways, isn’t it? Because depending on where your level of self-awareness and self-belief and confidence is, um, when that feedback comes in, you, you can either accept it graciously or otherwise. And, um, you know, it can be one of those things where, where, and, and feedback is just feedback, it’s information, and you have a choice about what you do with it, but, um, when it’s about your own development, your own leadership, your own, you know, self-awareness, and, and it’s intended to be helpful. Um, I think one of the things that, you know, where we’re at can, can also dictate how well we receive it, you know?

Andrew Short

Yeah. A bit where we are in our life. And sometimes that sliding doors open and other times that door is absolutely, uh, shut. I would have to say if we, if we’re going to talk about self-awareness or awareness of self, um, I can’t, I find that I can’t have this conversation with, uh, all the colleagues or family or friends in particular when I engage cause all I go around preaching and lecture to try to avoid that. However, people do want to have that chat sometimes. And I end up talking about ego, generally speaking as a part of that conversation. And I say that as someone who, uh, you know, if I get some feedback, uh, and, and probably whether today or yesterday, it would have happened for me. Uh, it can actually stink because as I said, it puts a gap between your view on something and another view, uh, and the, the expression, which comes to mind on that one is that sometimes you’re a ma sometimes your ego is not your amigo, meaning that, um, yeah, your, your ego, even though it’s trying to protect you, and my TinEye somewhat inward looking, uh, perspective on you can actually, um, blind you to the things that, um, you know, you should be saying.

Andrew Short

So, yeah, it’s a real personal journey.

Sally Foley-Lewis

Oh, totally agree with that. Yeah, definitely. So, so with that, mom, what impact does, do you think self leadership has on parts of us, like our confidence and our ability to influence and our courage to say, to, to speak up or stand up in certain situations?

Andrew Short

A, uh, uh, first I needed to describe a model that we’re using currently, which talks about how there’s, um, you know, self leadership and then that, uh, by having the right amount of that, then you can be better at leading others. And when you start leading others, you start moving and all those, some of those points you raised about, uh, influence and communication and relationship, and only then can you become part of a team that’s leading an organisation. So that’s the, that’s the hierarchy. And, you know, leading self is, or leadership of self is the foundation. It’s the base of saying, um, uh, examples of being there, myself that the earlier version of myself who maybe was not self-aware as I am now, and believe me all, all side up front that, um, um, although I think it’s a bit of work that any of us get to the end off, because all of a sudden were involved in the situation where you think your, your reaction to something you, you, you reflect and guide you.

Andrew Short

I thought I was better than that. However, uh, you know, we’re all humans and we all get to have, uh, uh, you know, good days, bad days where, you know, these are expression here. We are a chemical cocktail in any part of the day. Uh, we might react differently to things. So I think, uh, you know, leadership of self for me, a big part of it is not that you’re going to be good all the time. It’s that you’re aware that there are times where you might need to step away from something, because you’re not in the right frame of mind to be able to actually do that. And that’s something that I personally, uh, work on. Um, I think I’ve gotten a bit better at re uh, in not reacting directly to something which has been said, or an action that there are tons where you need to give yourself time to process it. So I think as you get better at this stuff, you get better, uh, not, uh, in the sense that you, uh, become perfect or you become able to control things better, including yourself. I think you just, you, you become better at using the tools and the, and the tech and the choices around the different moments, summary.

Sally Foley-Lewis

Yeah. It sounds like. Um, and, and I, if I’m, if I’m hearing you, what I’m hearing is that you get more discerning about how you’re going to respond to certain situations and, and even the courage that when you’re not feeling quite so good about something, it’s the courage to say no, or the courage to not respond to the courage, to not have to keep going. And, um, you know, stepping up when in actual fact, someone else could have that opportunity to step up. Um, you may, you may actually be doing the situation, a service by holding back. And so, um, they’re not being so reactionary. Uh, and I think it’s the courage to just to hold rather than react, I think is, is one of the things that I’m hearing you say,

Andrew Short

And what goes along with that is the notion of authentic leadership, where you give yourself those moments that maybe you’re not in the right space, then really high-functioning teams. My experience has been, the team itself knows where the individuals are and, uh, really, uh, positive, proactive team behavior. Uh, we’ll, we’ll actually, uh, scrum at the right moment. If someone’s having a bad diet, it would normally do a certain role. Uh, I actually formed a solution where they actually help that person. And, and I’ve got to say it when those moments play up there, they’re absolutely wonderful because all of a sudden you get to bypass or they’re a pothole or a disaster because the team has been able to, uh, um, you know, be conscious of the many parts of the team, individuals who live in their lives and good days have bad days. And it’s wonderful when it works. Conversely, when, uh, teams are not aware of how people are doing within them, uh, then I’ve seen some examples of what would be party to it, uh, where it becomes a train wreck.

Sally Foley-Lewis

Yeah. And it sounds like, you know, um, trust is the word I’m hearing underpinning all of that insight when, when we are okaying ourselves and we’ve got that level of ego in check, um, and we have the confidence in ourselves to be able to encourage, to say, I’m not okay. There also is that point at which this trust in the team or not. Um, but as you, as the example, you said first, when there’s trust in the team, then they do rally and together we work as one to get through the scenario. Um, or conversely, you know, when the, when there isn’t trust or trust is broken, I mean, that becomes a, you know, a mess

Andrew Short

It’s tough yards when they is a, um, a fracture or data break in, in the trust element of the team. The, um, I watch, uh, as I watch developing ladies, and this is something that I’ll become a lot more interested, I think, as you get through your, as you go through your career and whether I’m in an emergency surface or whether I was doing another business, I think my nature would have resulted that I’ll be interested anyway, uh, for our people though, uh, I, you know, I’m always looking for them to, to be at their best. And this kind of goes against some of the older thinking, which was, it’s all about making the boss look good. Uh, whereas, you know, the contemporary thinking is, yeah, try to set people up for a win in the context of the discussion we’re having. Yeah. That means maybe having a discussion with someone that they’re not quite ready yet for that situation.

Andrew Short

And that’s, um, uh, opportunity challenge, uh, my actually, uh, result in them know slotting, uh, to use the beachhead in allergy, you know, being pushed back into the ocean. So it’s, it’s interesting watching people come on, they’re all coming off their own different, different speed. Some of them have got their mind and ears open. Uh, they’re seeing things in themselves that others see, uh, others are not quite there. And so, uh, w we know that, uh, any effort that we put into people to let them actually understand who they are, and there’s so many different ways, um, how you can do that. I, um, you know, there’s different select tools and personality to devices, and, and there are lovers and haters of that stuff, and it can really polarize, but, uh, I find that, um, if people are going to, um, take it as I a slice or a, a keyhole look at who they might be, um, I actually encourage it.

Andrew Short

And, uh, I’ve seen people go through some of these, uh, to as assessment tools, um, you know, with the Myers Briggs or, uh, brain dominance or whatever. Um, and it’s quite interesting to watch people how they absorb that feedback that they get from a, um, uh, one mechanism. Uh, certainly, uh, you know, going back to your earlier point, uh, I think the golden standard here is having a team who are so high trust that the feedback mechanism is delivered objectively, uh, without fear of failure sometimes, um, because it’s, it’s high trust. People are gonna weigh that, um, you know, that the truth being put in their face, but that’s the voice available sites, you know, it’s, uh, you’re moving, arrange a chest pieces here to make this work,

Sally Foley-Lewis

And we’re dealing with humans. So, you know, we’ve got to sometimes meet people where they’re at. And, um, I know, I think, I think it’s really important that as late as, especially if we’ve got to be, um, mindful of where our team is at, and then maybe having those self leadership conversations, it’s, it’s around, um, uh, you know, where’s this person at right now. And if I pushed, you know, would that be helping or hindering, and, and I’m with you on the, the assessment pieces, you know, there’s some really good ones out there and there’s some other ones. Um, but at the end of the day, there’s a lot of there’s there’s information in there. And to me, the most important piece around these assessments is actually in the debrief. Um, I just had a conversation with someone recently, a leader, a team, they did an assessment, but no one debriefed it with them.

Sally Foley-Lewis

And so they’re just sitting there going, well, this person does this, according to this assessment, and, and on this particular stall, and I was listening to them talk, and I said, have you done a debrief D who did, did, did the person, you did this with debrief this with you? And the leader said, no. And I said, right, that’s our issue because you don’t know how to then unpack and interpret and apply these concepts and have conversations around how these impact you as a team and, and as your individual contributions to the team. So in there in terms of individuals in their self-leadership. So, um,

Andrew Short

I think it can really, it can really confuse people. I know I’ve seen that too. Yeah, it can, it can affect people to a degree where they start to really, um, question, uh, even good parts of themselves. That’s how, you know, you all agree that structured debrief by practitioner who’s actually skilled, um, can actually help that almost always very much a sign of people. Uh, this is not who you are. This is how you think, uh, because people tend to want to go back to the core person. And, um, uh, there’s not too many people. Um, you know, I’m talking so much just, uh, educationalists that go back who ha have, or will ever be able to map the human being. We can net the genome, but we can’t map individuals. And I was going to say earlier, you reminded me that I continue to see, uh, uh, management science, try to turn human beings and that we, and to think that this organisational, this part of the organisation will work.

Andrew Short

If we have this structure and this person reporting to this person, and we have this blueprint. And so these are all good tools. However, the human sometimes gets lost in this. And, uh, my experience has been that, uh, when things are all gone bad, it’s human nature, uh, in its best, uh, demonstration is what brings, what brings, um, you know, organisations or teams through a moment. And I know I’m always a sign of people that, um, keep humans at the center of that. Uh, I’m very mindful of, uh, having a view that, uh, you got to accept that humans are going to fail you, even people who, uh, and almost saying Seinfeld deliberately will maliciously, I’m assigning that they gonna have a bad day, or they’re gonna miss something that they, uh, that you, you, your ego will say, if I did it, I wouldn’t have missed it.

Andrew Short

And all the crap that goes on, um, they gonna have a bad dime, and we gotta be very mindful of that because of max a little bit easier. I think one of the things that happened for me as I, as I became a senior later, that was once I accepted that people, all people get to have a bad day or people get to have the occasional mistake and we’ll will indeed we’ll have we’ll do so. Uh, it, it actually gets women easier because you’re not, uh, being disappointed by, uh, having a self in this false world. That things should be better than that. Yeah.

Sally Foley-Lewis

Mm. And expectations of managed much better too, aren’t they? And, and, you know, I think that’s a really critical piece of, um, that, that, that connection between how I see myself and forgiveness, when I make a mistake and what I’m going to do about it, when I make a mistake and the kindness that I can, I can bring to myself, if I apply that to others as well, then my expectations are actually quite rational and real unrealistic. And, and I think that also, if, if that shows up in, in our behaviour, then we’re going to be someone that others will feel safe to be around, to admit a mistake, to say, help me, I’ve made a mistake. Um, look, I made a mistake. This is how I fixed it. Do you think I did the right thing, you know, and that, that makes the, the distance from era to resolution much shorter then, um, as opposed to any other environment where people are too scared to speak up, um, the, you know, so, and you sweep it under the carpet or I’m harder, or have their Teflon coat on, you know, um,

Andrew Short

Okay. Carry it with them, even though the other people have actually moved on. It’s quite interesting. I think I need to, uh, um, just mention here that, that notion of judging self as judging others. Um, and I do see this then I probably don’t myself, um, when human human nature is that when we see another person, uh, do, do something that we don’t agree with or don’t like it, whether we actually end up, we, we judge them on their behaviour, varies where he’s, when we spin it Rams, uh, conveniently, we judge ourselves on our intention and you’ve probably had Sally, I’ve heard that before. It’s true. Did say. And I say that being somebody who does it, so you got to keep, and this is going back to where we started leadership ourself. Um, yeah, there are times where I want to go, Oh, come on, Andrew. You know, get back to reality. You know, they they’ve done nothing different to what you’ve done yourself a hundred times. And so, uh, you know, when I have that dialogue, I try to make it say that I’m not talking to myself cause that might raise some eyebrows, but yeah, that’s that sort of narrative that, that, that all of that’s going on in your mind all the time that we all have all the stuff.

Sally Foley-Lewis

Oh yeah. We’ll have self-talk definitely. Yeah. So, so let me ask you this, has there been some sort of an event, or, or maybe there was an event you don’t really need to share the event that the choice is yours, but, but being a time where you’ve had to read night, um, your own spark, particularly around self leadership, um, what did you do to, to be able to spark yourself up and fire yourself back up again and, and maybe some of the lessons around that?

Andrew Short

Yeah, the, uh, the one that stands out to, to, to my mind is, um, I, um, the, the nature of the roles that we are in there, um, you know, we, we all serve at the pleasure of our commissioner. And so there are times where you might get moved to a role, a different portfolio. And certainly for me coming out of one portfolio, going into to another, uh, you know, that, that was a period of change for me because I felt like I hadn’t quite finished what I had set out to, uh, to achieve, but we don’t life. We don’t have control of everything. And I’ve found that, uh, I think what helped me through that, it didn’t happen quickly, but what helped me was I had to recalibrate my why, um, and this, and I’ve learned this one of the things in life that I’ve learned, that if I’m not clear in my mind about the why of why I’m doing something or why I’m leading a team about something, or why am I trying to improve this portfolio or provide better service to these people, if I’m not clear in that my mind.

Andrew Short

And then that’s where I’m likely to, um, you know, wonder, or, you know, just straight, straight ally to a place where you’re, um, yeah, you don’t have the drive that you need to have as a senior person in an organisation, and you don’t have the focus that you need to. So my, my, um, the lesson and I could have talked more about the roles, but probably not a great benefit, but the role that I came out of, uh, was heavily invested in culture change and, uh, you know, something which to this day is so very important to me. Um, you know, having felt like, you know, being able to move some things, but still things hadn’t moved them an inch. And so therefore, um, you know, I found myself, um, there’s a nice little book. Um, if I turned around my bookshelf, I could probably find it that a book total who moved my cheese, which is not, it’s not, not a new book, but it’s essentially a book which helps people to refocus and recalibrate.

Andrew Short

So I think there’s a lot of knowledge in this space and people don’t need to have all the answers. None of us need to have all the answers. That’s the beauty of life. There’s so much, uh, support round is whether it be, uh, literature, whether it be a network, whether it be a trusted mentor that, um, uh, w we will get ourselves in trouble when we don’t use those connections to something. And an example would be, uh, are probably got half a dozen books that, uh, if, um, in a certain situation or a certain quandary, I’ll go back to that book because it will recenter me, uh, or it might be a simply, um, uh, we all sometimes get the situation where we w where we feel like we’re, um, dealing with the most horrible situation in the world. And then you, you kind of, you know, you kind of give yourself a bit of a wake up and you realise that a lot of people out there are doing a lot tougher to try to re gather your perspective. And that’s one example, but there’s many way, yeah, there are things that, uh, you can do to actually help yourself get back on the route, think any change in life, whether it be a work change, or a personal change, you see this relationship changes, you know, people wonder for a while because they’re a bit lost. Um, and my advice is always use a wide range of tools that are available for you.

Sally Foley-Lewis

Um, and I guess if you feeling that little bit of isolated, they can be that little bit of period, like you said, meandering, but we do have a lot around us where we were, maybe there’s a bit of overwhelm as to where do I go back to, um, that might be an experience for people and who moved my TVs, and he’s a such a classic book. You know, his kids wrote a sequel. No, I didn’t know that. Yeah. So not that long ago, actually, so yeah, there’s a sequel to the book, so yeah. Is it the same theme or it’s the continuing saga of him in the hallway, so, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, so how do you help your people far up their self-leadership?

Andrew Short

I think, uh, impalement sits at the center of that for me. And, uh, what goes along with that is trust. Yeah. So, uh, um, I think that aspect is something that comes very naturally to me, um, which I think my people, uh, current team, previous teams that I’ve worked, uh, who worked for me with me and are very key. You see, I’m very careful with that language, uh, that I’ll use. Um, so I think if you give you, if your people, um, realise that they’re safe to use that term you used before, and that they can make a mistake, uh, they’re more likely to be a bit bolder in trying to find a better solution. So I think empowerment is probably sits at the center of that for me, but if you don’t have that trust or the being built, or have it having already been built, then, uh, you’re gonna have people who are trying to be empowered, but they’re looking over their shoulder because they’re just a little bit unsure and maybe they’ve been, uh, uh, uh, you know, the burnt before a people, as we well know, carry stuff with us. Um, so that, yeah, that works for me. Um, and I should say that for every good thing that I think I give my team, all the people I work with, uh, there are probably a, um, a long lists of things that I know that I drove them crazy on. So I just need, I need to put that on the record here. So I don’t promote myself as bad, perfectly at it because I’m not

Sally Foley-Lewis

Nice disclaimer, danger. Yeah. Um, but that’s owning it, isn’t it? I mean, what you just said then is, is the total bit about going, I’m not perfect and I’m sure I annoy someone. And I think that’s, that to me is, is, is an example of self-leadership and action it’s. So, you know, as much as we may want the world to love us and like us and accepting us as who we are, the reality is I grate on someone and someone grates on me, and that actually makes the world a pretty interesting place, you know?

Andrew Short

Yeah, it does. And going back to our earlier comments about leader leadership herself, or leading self, uh, I think once you start to understand and be comfortable that you’re going to have people out there who, uh, if I could find a little doll and a few pins, um, you know, they’d be, they’d be sticking those pins in because you, you know, you clearly are, there are different place to where they are, you might have offended, but I think, uh, I think accepting that that’s going to happen on I’m looking at, I’m not saying efficacy, and this is where, uh, you know, the, the people out there, there are people out there who are so, uh, um, oblivious to the impact they have on people. And those people generally love the narcissist at the end of the spectrum. Um, you know, you don’t want that, but you gotta be there in the middle some way accepting that you’re going to be disliked.

Andrew Short

And when I get asked the question from people who are seeking to promote or take on a more senior responsible role, and it could be not just, you know, organisation, it could be in a volunteer capacity on a weekend, or, uh, or, you know, uh, I sporting team managing the sporting table, whatever that the sooner they understand that, um, uh, what, what comes with that, um, sort of the glory, cause it’s not glory w what comes with it is the need to disappoint people. And, and I think, uh, uh, you know, being at a site, notice someone and know that they’re going to not like it. Um, the sooner you get comfortable with that stuff, the, uh, the better your mental health, mental health has got to be, it’s still stings. And for a person of my nature, uh, it, it does sting me, but I’ve learned that I have to do it. And, uh, don’t always do it well, you kind of stumble over it and you kind of get, get through the best you can. But, um, yeah, I think now that you to disappoint someone is, uh, is, is quite important. There’s a really quirky expression, and I don’t believe it, but I do think it’s corny in that, uh, people, uh, thinking that, uh, leadership is the ability to disappoint someone at a level at a level that they can cope with.

Sally Foley-Lewis

Right?

Andrew Short

Oh, no. And I believe that, but certainly, um, it probably speaks to the notion of that you got to, you got to develop skills so that in you delivering that negative message or whatever, that you’re not going to destroy the soul.

Sally Foley-Lewis

Okay. Yeah. And you can see where that, that, that line, or that cliche comes from Katya. Um, and yeah. And that comes back to also, um, understanding that, like you said, it’s about understanding that you will be disappointing somebody at some stage, um, and more than once probably. And it’s, and then it’s about, okay, I’ve got to get, I’ve got to get to some level of acceptance of this. Um, I don’t have to like it, but I have to know that that happens. And then I also have to, if, if I’m anything in my own leadership, and if I’m anything of any salt in my worth, then I will do my best to make sure that I’m delivering that disappointment in the least painful way possible. And, and I think you, like, you, I’m like you a little bit, Andrew, in that I’m a bit of a people pleaser. And so I stumble over it and I crumble over it. And, and, and it’s never, never a negative intent, but it’s how do we, how do we constantly find ways to make sure that when we are delivering disappointment, we do it with, with dignity and respect and, and with the least amount of pain possible. So, yeah.

Andrew Short

And, and certainly, uh, whilst always, uh, difficult, I think it’s accepted that you got to be able to do it. And, uh, there’s that lovely little scene in Apollo 11 where the Tom Hanks character, uh, he, he, he tells his mate, there’s not going to make the trip and, and the end, he could have drifted into blaming a third party or blaming others for it, but he didn’t do that. He said, this is my decision. And I think, um, you know, owning your decisions, um, you know, goes hand in hand.

Sally Foley-Lewis

Yeah. That’s a, that’s a great, um, analogy metaphor for that, that pace. I mean, that I can, yeah. I don’t remember most of the movie, but as soon as you said that, mama, I remember that sane. So yeah, that’s a really strong, powerful, uh, list. So thank you. So I’ve got one more question for you, Andrew. And that is what is the one thing wish you knew about self leadership when you first stepped into your, like your first leadership, first management, like shifting from individual contributor to people manager, what’s the one thing you knew about self leadership?

Andrew Short

I wish I knew that I’m the only one who sees things the way I see it, because that’s, that is the, the lesson that I’ve learned the hard way. Uh, and this, this, it’s almost an ignorance that, uh, you believe you’re so clear in your mind that you believe in something and then you become a bit indignant about, or why don’t, why, why doesn’t everyone else see it the same way. Whereas the reality is, you know, you have 10 people in a room, uh, 10 people are going to see things a slightly different now. Yeah. Most of my degree generally, uh, but no one is exactly on the same money and, or wish I had learned that earlier.

Sally Foley-Lewis

Yeah. That’s powerful. Um, and thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate it. So any last words you want to share before we wrap up our, our spark check?

Andrew Short

Um, I’d just say to, uh, anyone who’s listening, uh, that if it feels hard as you work on yourself, uh, that means you’re having to go, and it means that your, uh, you know, you’re, you’re continuing to expose yourself to discomfort that goes with growth. And, um, whereas, you know, the easy way, you know, that the road less traveled to use that, um, Oh yeah, the roadless travel is it comes with a cost, but I think we all, we all benefit from it, uh, down the track and, and, you know, the objective being that, uh, we’re, we’re a slightly better person each year that passes. Yeah,

Sally Foley-Lewis

Definitely. Thank you for that. So Andrew Short, the assistant commissioner for the Queensland fire and emergency services. Thank you very much for your time and your wisdom and your, uh, uh, your insights. I, uh, I really appreciate that. Um, lots to think about, uh, lots of gold there and, um, really, really value the, that, you know, not everyone’s going to see it my way. Um, I think, I think, yeah, that resonates with me a lot, actually. So thank you so much.

Andrew Short

And if you don’t mind, Sally, I’m going to do a little plug here and people will find me on LinkedIn. People will find me on LinkedIn and, uh, you’ll find a, um, a link to a series of podcasts I do about leadership. And, uh, we be, uh, great for anyone if you’re on the journey to jump on there and you, and you could even pick a topic that you think is applicable to you right now in your life or professional life or personal life. Uh, but that, that’s my contribution to the profession, to the profession of leadership. So, um, Sally, thank you very much for the invitation to come on. And, um, I’ve, I did have a quick look at the other work you’ve done and it’s, it’s really not, it’s really good work. And, and, and, and thank you for the, uh, contribution you make, um, maybe making leadership journeys just a little bit easier than they might.

Sally Foley-Lewis

Thank you so much. Now what’s the name of your podcast?

Andrew Short

Uh, the it’s actually titled influenced me. It’s a play on that. Leadership is all about influence and also influencing yourself in the choices you make. And, uh, you can get on Podbean or on Spotify or Apple podcasts,

Sally Foley-Lewis

And the link will go with this. We’ll make sure that links in with,

Andrew Short

Well, thank you very much. So, because the, I think I should say, is that a part of the reason I do the podcast may this might be the same for you. I don’t know. It’s actually your own development and doing it and having these discussions with people, you actually think secrets. Well, you do you get clearer in your own mind about things and, and or you, or you confront, uh, previous views or thoughts that you have in your shift. And I think it’s wonderful watching people, uh, shift in their life in terms of their attitudes and views. Cause that that’s, that to me is, um, you know, maturing and I’m outside the is get to be a wise in the true sense. Uh, but you get to be a little bit wiser than you used to be, but anyway, back to you, Sally, thank you very much,